2023-01-07 22:03:15	doug	ended up hand-coding a PDF
2023-01-07 22:03:17	doug	https://gist.github.com/dougluce/0c0de73f16563e592f5c11c1cb1dd449
2023-01-07 22:03:38	doug	oughta do the job
2023-01-08 05:32:55	GetShwifty	lol
2023-01-08 07:29:58	GothAlice	doug: Admittedly, your output is half the size of mine, but my input is only 16 bytes, so… still substantially larger than what you actually need to ship. 😜
2023-01-08 07:37:07	doug	i suppose it's 16 bytes if you don't include the storage needed for a ghostscript installation
2023-01-08 07:37:28	doug	i also actually need stuff within the pdf to be assertable later on
2023-01-08 07:38:25	GetShwifty	heh ghostscript. tjeres something ive not heard of in a  moment
2023-01-08 07:41:09	GothAlice	GetShwifty: Still built into virtually everything. 'Cause printing.
2023-01-08 07:41:46	GetShwifty	mmm
2023-01-08 07:41:49	GetShwifty	isnt ghostscript gpl 
2023-01-08 07:41:57	GetShwifty	explicitly forbiding any linking to anything not also gp?
2023-01-08 07:42:09	GothAlice	AGPL3.
2023-01-08 07:42:30	GetShwifty	does that allow linking to non gpl?
2023-01-08 07:42:42	GetShwifty	cause i recall donig this reearch muiltiple times and having to nix it cause it didn't allow this 
2023-01-08 07:43:26	GothAlice	No idea. But I have absolutely no need to "link" to it in any way given the exposed command line interfaces work great.
2023-01-08 07:44:02	 *	GothAlice ponders the reasons to remove / ditch something that works fine in the vast majority of contexts except explicitly one, just because it doesn't work in that one. 😝
2023-01-08 07:44:30	GetShwifty	well if it is a  potential licensing risk, legal team will not allow it
2023-01-08 07:46:39	GothAlice	Command-line invocation is not linking. ;) We interfaced to ImageMagick + GhostScript via a complex indirection system not because of licensing, but because of information security. PostScript being a programming language that has pathological cases, so we had to isolate the users from the privileged application doing the CMYK rendering and composition.
2023-01-08 07:46:48	GetShwifty	yeah but .. i've seen a few cases 
2023-01-08 07:46:57	GetShwifty	where anbd i think imagemagick was one of the ones in question 
2023-01-08 07:47:03	GothAlice	Also useful for batching and general job distribution to a cluster.
2023-01-08 07:47:09	GetShwifty	i think iit went  to court, i don't remember what happened 
2023-01-08 07:47:24	GothAlice	Are you Linksys?
2023-01-08 07:47:25	GetShwifty	it just was sort ofone of those things "if you get bigenough" it might be frowned upon in a legal manner
2023-01-08 07:47:48	GothAlice	Selling tens to hundreds of millions of devices containing software in violation of a license?
2023-01-08 07:47:50	GetShwifty	lmao, those guys have done numerous things but most of their stuff iirc was really blatant
2023-01-08 07:48:11	GothAlice	Unless you're them, you probably don't have much to worry about. There is no financial benefit in going after the small fry.
2023-01-08 07:48:23	GothAlice	Only costs.
2023-01-08 07:48:39	GetShwifty	iirc the command line invocation was just murky enough to make me s ay, lets spend 1-2k$ and have a royalty free licensed solution 
2023-01-08 07:49:09	GothAlice	And that's why garbage VCL packs, "data table" implementations, and reporting solutions have propagated under their own momentum for 40 years.
2023-01-08 07:49:19	GetShwifty	hah
2023-01-08 07:49:19	GothAlice	ReportBuilder. I used that in '88.
2023-01-08 07:49:25	GetShwifty	OMG remember VCL!
2023-01-08 07:49:37	GetShwifty	I actually like(d) Debenu
2023-01-08 07:49:42	GothAlice	Visual Component Libraries. Fun times. 😜
2023-01-08 07:49:49	GetShwifty	they got bought out by foxit though , i like Foxit less so 
2023-01-08 07:49:55	GothAlice	Not the same thing, I suspect.
2023-01-08 07:50:02	GetShwifty	Debenu?
2023-01-08 07:50:11	GetShwifty	they do PDF Creation/manipulation library
2023-01-08 07:50:23	GetShwifty	*are
2023-01-08 07:50:30	GothAlice	https://torry.net/pages.php?id=20 ← see the entire left-hand menu aside. Not sure why but this category was the default.
2023-01-08 07:50:38	GothAlice	PDf generation is one of many components here.
2023-01-08 07:50:44	GetShwifty	heh
2023-01-08 07:50:56	GetShwifty	hah i should send that link to my friend 
2023-01-08 07:51:21	GetShwifty	hes been bitching about ms removing xmlsig from .net core and then (putting in an incomplete/bastardized version in one of the later ones) compared to .net fw's complete implementation
2023-01-08 07:51:45	GetShwifty	‏‎Freeware + source 08 Feb 1999
2023-01-08 07:52:06	GothAlice	Talk to me about Microsoft and standards when they can generate the same SHA HMAC as literally the rest of the world when using unaligned keys.
2023-01-08 07:52:21	GetShwifty	lol
2023-01-08 07:52:38	doug	i wonder if any 4-year BSCS has a required class to clue CS majors into how law works
2023-01-08 07:52:50	GothAlice	"Hello" using a 64-byte key under SHA-256: a-OK. "Hello" using a 63-byte key under SHA-256: it's in la-la land. 
2023-01-08 07:52:58	GetShwifty	hah doug, "i wish" and based on my experience , i don't think so :D
2023-01-08 07:53:08	GetShwifty	but then again, most lawyers, dont know .. how CS works 
2023-01-08 07:53:37	GetShwifty	I've been counsel, to a few legal counsel for IT/CS related matters over the years lol
2023-01-08 07:54:53	GetShwifty	would definitely be a valuable thing to add maybe not to a Bachelors but at least a masters 
2023-01-08 07:55:12	GothAlice	I specialized in a few different software packages for law professionals (e.g. court ordered interest calculators), up to court systems (prisoner transport, case record filing and tracking, …) and can confirm. Most lawyers I've met (honestly, correctly) assume computers to be purpose-built appliances designed to do a job and just work.
2023-01-08 07:55:16	doug	i've yet to run into a CS graduate on the standard career path who wasn't sure they could figure out a license just by reading it
2023-01-08 07:55:21	GetShwifty	feel like people going for bachelor in that probably don't quit yet have the experience to actually make  a lot of the knoweldge "work"
2023-01-08 07:55:52	GothAlice	doug: Amusingly, I was tasked with writing a lot of the legalese to be handed off for approval to the suits. Only had a few minor points of feedback. Apparently, I BS with the best of 'em. 😜
2023-01-08 07:55:54	GetShwifty	yeah doug it takes a lot of reading legalese speak to kind of start getting terminologies and general concepts 
2023-01-08 07:56:27	GothAlice	Admittedly, I did not invoke the legal team's attack shark in the text I wrote. Probably helped not get rejected.
2023-01-08 07:56:29	GetShwifty	like understanding the concept of "how do you define something" and if you're going to write legalese it needs to be something that you can define, and something that other people can reasonably define in mostly the same manner
2023-01-08 07:56:49	GetShwifty	and then "intent"
2023-01-08 07:57:02	GothAlice	An extension of "use the words before you use the acronym version of them", legalese has a lot of… preparatory work.
2023-01-08 07:57:12	GetShwifty	yeah
2023-01-08 07:57:30	GothAlice	And by gum, I grok the wall of heavy looking books. Citation of settled case law is akin to accounting.
2023-01-08 07:57:39	GetShwifty	hehe yeah
2023-01-08 07:57:46	GetShwifty	i feellike AI technology 
2023-01-08 07:58:09	GetShwifty	and context search technology really probably has done MASSIVE wonders for reducing a lot of researh time for those teams with access to that
2023-01-08 07:58:49	GetShwifty	being ableto go from 100,000 cases/verdicts/etc to a refined 100-1k that you might be interested in andmight be applicable to what you're looking for
2023-01-08 07:58:55	GothAlice	Alas, many of the restricted-access systems for lawyers, attorneys, legal aids, &c. are absolute blasts from the past.
2023-01-08 07:59:01	GetShwifty	lo
2023-01-08 07:59:02	GetShwifty	yup
2023-01-08 07:59:18	GetShwifty	many are finally jumping on board the XML / REST / JSON as "alternate" paths lol
2023-01-08 07:59:34	GothAlice	GetShwifty: The company :coughIBMcough: who was hired in open bid to replace my case tracking software spent two orders of magnitude more than they would have if they had continued with us, but that company also… forgot… important details.
2023-01-08 07:59:36	GetShwifty	Thomson Reuters STILL had NOT jumped on board when i last visited them and their api proly 7+ years ago
2023-01-08 07:59:45	GetShwifty	yeah
2023-01-08 07:59:57	GetShwifty	honstly 2x is really cheap for IBM
2023-01-08 07:59:57	GetShwifty	lol
2023-01-08 08:00:05	GetShwifty	usually expect it to be 10-100x lmao 
2023-01-08 08:00:08	GothAlice	Like we have publication rules over family court cases; can't be published if it involves any minors. Requires a case tracking code. "FAM" – they didn't have one in the rewrite.
2023-01-08 08:00:17	GetShwifty	rofl
2023-01-08 08:00:20	GetShwifty	niiiiceee
2023-01-08 08:00:25	GothAlice	Let's just say the consultation process was… painful.
2023-01-08 08:00:43	GetShwifty	I could imagine 
2023-01-08 08:00:56	GetShwifty	any time a client considers consulting with IBM, SAP or friends in this space, I"m like best of luck, peace out
2023-01-08 08:01:09	GothAlice	GetShwifty: Two orders of magnitude is not 2×
2023-01-08 08:01:15	GetShwifty	oh
2023-01-08 08:01:21	GetShwifty	like 2^2 ?
2023-01-08 08:01:39	GetShwifty	oh
2023-01-08 08:01:47	GothAlice	That's two extra zeroes (using base 10). 10^n.
2023-01-08 08:01:52	GetShwifty	okay
2023-01-08 08:01:56	GetShwifty	THAT SOUNDS LIKE IBM!
2023-01-08 08:01:56	GetShwifty	lol
2023-01-08 08:01:59	GothAlice	YUUUUP
2023-01-08 08:02:24	GothAlice	OH MY GODS I CAN'T EVEN SHARE THE BEST OF THE WORST
2023-01-08 08:02:57	GothAlice	🤔 string__first_name__amcgregor_2022_01_08__v1
2023-01-08 08:03:04	GothAlice	As a database field name, that should get the idea across.
2023-01-08 08:03:11	GetShwifty	heh
2023-01-08 08:03:23	GetShwifty	thta's uhh..
2023-01-08 08:03:32	GothAlice	Always kept up-to-date with the last modification time, user of last modification, and linear version number. As database fields.
2023-01-08 08:03:47	GetShwifty	i dont know what to say
2023-01-08 08:04:08	GothAlice	Yeah. 😶
2023-01-08 08:04:34	GothAlice	IBM, man.
2023-01-08 08:08:34	GothAlice	GetShwifty: My older version (RITS/RAFTS, or Registry Information Tracking System) had public access terminals, since court cases are… public information unless restricted. We dealt with such restrictions, too, with in-place redaction (black boxing), &c. so you knew something was omitted. Public access terminals basically used keyboards that had no keys except alphanumeric, the PC µATX boxes were physically secure, &c.
2023-01-08 08:08:42	GothAlice	The replacement had no public access provisions of any kind.
2023-01-08 08:09:16	GothAlice	Face → desk.
2023-01-08 08:09:17	GetShwifty	that also sounds like IBM lol
2023-01-08 08:09:49	GetShwifty	IBM: "nobody will have a personal computer. Everybody will log onto our terminal"
2023-01-08 08:10:14	GothAlice	We had VNC-like remote support that also took into account levels of sensitivity. If someone (public access terminal or not) requested help, they'd get help and a support agent would be able to view their DOS—DOS!—text mode display, with sensitive information redacted.
2023-01-08 08:10:33	GetShwifty	famcy!
2023-01-08 08:11:04	GothAlice	It was also multiuser networked… under DOS. Without global locking, with data shared over standard file sharing services.
2023-01-08 08:11:11	GothAlice	Famcy indeed.
2023-01-08 08:11:59	GothAlice	(Remember LANTastic? Yeah, was using that to start with. Windows Networking—SMB—eventually replaced it.)
2023-01-08 08:12:12	GetShwifty	:p
2023-01-08 08:18:32	GetShwifty	Whoever rebuilt the city's water utility portal really needs to be ...
2023-01-08 08:18:54	GetShwifty	they went from a workable , a bit inefficent solution to a horrible, barely works, sometimes painfully slow, very ugly /defunct looking 
2023-01-08 08:19:31	GetShwifty	i also think they're technically not in compliance, their receipt order simply spits out the total but implies that you were given a confirmation # and to record it for records, with no "invoice view"
2023-01-08 08:21:24	GothAlice	GetShwifty: Having done such integration for the City of Campbell River… it's easy to rag on the front-end, but enlightenment can be gained if they're using AS/400's as the back-end. 😜 FTP up a CSV, RCMD to trigger processing, FTP down another CSV. And these are machines that don't have lower-case. 😝
2023-01-08 08:21:36	GothAlice	(Water bills, dog licenses, parking fees and fines, …)
2023-01-08 08:21:40	GetShwifty	Mmm 
2023-01-08 08:21:44	GetShwifty	i dont think that's the case 
2023-01-08 08:21:51	GothAlice	I'd HOPE not! 😆
2023-01-08 08:21:56	GetShwifty	cause their prior solution was a solution modern enough to use oauth for identity 
2023-01-08 08:22:12	GothAlice	Again, probably a difference between front-end and city back-end.
2023-01-08 08:22:19	GetShwifty	yeah iono
2023-01-08 08:22:44	GetShwifty	i think it went from a company that does all the utilities for most of texas (and might be operating elsewhere)  
2023-01-08 08:22:53	GetShwifty	to they hired a local company from tyler to do something 
2023-01-08 08:23:07	GetShwifty	like i think if i wanted to talk to the compay that did this i could find it :D 
2023-01-08 08:23:21	GothAlice	Indeed. Campbell River's AS/400 was being maintained by one of two companies still in British Columbia doing such things. It was problematic.
2023-01-08 08:24:03	GetShwifty	'member the days when backend systems WERE AS/400 and we were not and we communicated to the AS/400 systems through a very brittle, explodey and proprietary  ODBC connector.. Pepperidge Farm remembers
2023-01-08 08:24:26	GothAlice	But… legacy investment. And ye gods, ODBC is a way to give someone war flashbacks.
2023-01-08 08:24:35	GetShwifty	yup
2023-01-08 08:24:43	GetShwifty	i gave it to myself just typing that up :D 
2023-01-08 08:25:02	GetShwifty	though technically it got surfaced by as/400 lol
2023-01-08 08:32:28	GetShwifty	oh shit 7gb free on production system :|
2023-01-08 09:27:47	 *	GothAlice snrks.
2023-01-08 09:28:11	GothAlice	326G, 454G, 1.14T, 306G, … plenty of free space o'er here! 😜
2023-01-08 09:28:21	GetShwifty	lol, showoff :-p 
2023-01-08 09:28:30	GetShwifty	*borrows 1/2 TB of storage from GothAlice 
2023-01-08 09:29:16	 *	GothAlice redacts an offer. 😆
2023-01-08 09:30:07	GothAlice	GetShwifty: https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage.html + https://secure.backblaze.com/r/01i3qr
2023-01-08 09:30:17	GetShwifty	:-p 
2023-01-08 09:30:48	GothAlice	$5/TB/month is hard to beat.
2023-01-08 09:30:57	GetShwifty	what I posted was  production/live storage for documents and db 
2023-01-08 09:31:17	GetShwifty	(the Transaction Log for the db which I truncated was 40+gb )
2023-01-08 09:31:31	GetShwifty	but yeah can't beat that price for backup storage
2023-01-08 09:32:33	GothAlice	https://github.com/wal-e/wal-e#readme 😜 Continuous oplog replication streaming to permanent storage. See the readme for modern alternatives. (I used to run Postgres servers that had no permanent storage of any kind.)
2023-01-08 09:32:54	GothAlice	Also boot-from-CD servers. Those were the days.
2023-01-08 09:34:08	GetShwifty	heh
2023-01-08 09:45:29	GetShwifty	wonder what the result is if a bank employee steals 20 $ from somebody's account, presumably taking it for the company and not themselves
2023-01-08 11:27:05	DarkUranium	Q. Is there a standard practice for identifying click vs drag? As in, how much movement to tolerate and so on.
2023-01-08 11:27:32	DarkUranium	(I *might* be able to implement DOM hacks here for native behaviour, but I'll *probably* need to implement my own)
2023-01-08 11:44:12	GetShwifty	iirc browsers have a drag start and drag end?
2023-01-08 11:44:18	GetShwifty	iirc browsers have a drag start and drag end event?
2023-01-08 11:44:47	GetShwifty	i'd argue that youp probably not reinvent the wheel, leverage what the browser has, and if you can't utilize something that is very well rounded/battle tested for that
2023-01-08 12:26:17	GothAlice	Browsers shouldn't emit a click event if dragging occurs. mouseDown, sure, but not click.
2023-01-08 12:28:35	GetShwifty	yeah
2023-01-08 12:29:06	GetShwifty	why its usually best to leverage what the browser does as much as possible as it caters to user/os configuration for stuff like that
2023-01-08 12:29:13	GetShwifty	*usually should cater